Following the significant January 11th decision by the SEC to permit spot Bitcoin ETFs trading our panel of esteemed experts—Zoe Cruz, Lex Sokolin, and Andrew Hohns—dive deep into the implications of this newfound accessibility in crypto investing.
They shed light on why the younger generations, Gen Z and millennials, are pivotal to the future of the crypto space, delve into both traditional and innovative use cases for this transformative technology, and explore how DeFi meets essential financial needs within blockchain networks. Moderated by Bancorp and Cohen Circle Co-Founder Daniel Cohen.
Below are some highlights from the webinar, followed by the replay and a full transcript.
On the SEC decision to allow spot Bitcoin ETFs
This is really just the beginning of a whole new segment of capital markets gaining easy access to Bitcoin and driving additional demand for what is already the scarcest and most truly finite fungible asset in the world. - Andrew Hohns, Newmarket Capital
You don't just want to hold those assets and make them special for yourself because of capital gains. You want to use those assets and participate in the various software, decentralized finance, NFTs, decentralized physical infrastructure, all the stuff that's been built on that computational financial architecture of blockchains. I'm really excited to get rid of this feeling of riskiness and illicitness that has, has unfortunately stayed with the industry and just make it yet another regular thing that people are exposed. - Lex Sokolin, Generative Ventures
On use cases in crypto
The idea of a community having the ability to make decisions in a decentralized autonomous organization, those are uses that I'm really excited for. - Daniel Cohen, Cohen Circle
The future is bigger and bigger communities, creating an ecosystem...decentralized finance, within that ecosystem, nation states will allow you to grow exponentially, and you could have the banking functions within that ecosystem. - Zoe Cruz, Menai Financial
Refugees, political dissidents and abused women are holding on to Bitcoin and saving in a way that gives them personal freedom. People are not really counting on Avalanche or Cardano to provide them with that personal freedom when they're crossing the border trying to escape circumstances that are very difficult. - Andrew Hohns
On investing in the digital asset space
Zero allocation to this space is the wrong answer. More than three to 5% is also the wrong answer. Because this is nascent, some of these tokens will cease to exist, some of these projects will fail dramatically. But the way I look at it as an asset allocator, in my own family office, you make money by taking risks. That's how I made my career, but you need to get paid for the risk. - Zoe Cruz
For the Web3 world and the crypto world, it's an economic architecture, which has its own financial system. And that's going to exist and it already does exist alongside the traditional financial system. But it just so happens that it is the place where the growth is going to root. It's the interesting place to build. It's the unexplored frontier and people are moving into it both with their capital and career decisions. And so, I think if I can leave people with anything is just to be curious and to explore it as seriously as you can. - Lex Sokolin
Full Webinar Replay: Embracing Change - Traditional Finance Meets the Digital Economy
The below transcript has been edited for clarity.
Daniel Cohen 00:00
Good morning. Thanks for everybody who is joining us. We're very excited about our panel for two reasons. We're fascinated by what's going on in digital assets, and we're excited to talk about it as potentially we're coming out of this crypto winter, given that the SEC has approved spot Bitcoin ETFs. And it's made it easier for investors to safely participate in the space.
With this regulatory change, is that a major shift? And what do you guys talk about the value of future digital assets?
Andrew Hohns 05:26
I think that yesterday was definitely a watershed moment for the digital asset industry to begin seeing so many major and established participants offer spot Bitcoin ETFs. We saw tremendous inflows. It was the third largest first day begin for Blackrock in its history of ETFs, which have been at this point 576 of them. And this is really just the beginning of a whole new segment of capital markets gaining easy access to Bitcoin and driving additional demand for what is already the scarcest and most truly finite fungible asset in the world.
The interesting aspect of yesterday was how Vanguard prevented its clients from trading in the ETFs, and the trending posts on Twitter to boycott Vanguard, and so many people saying they're moving their accounts. It just reminds us that even these products are heavily permissioned. And it's interesting to take a permissionless asset like Bitcoin, where you can move it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, anywhere around the world whenever you'd like to another address and put it into a structure that is only trading during market hours. And where intermediaries can turn on or off the spigot. So, you have to be aware of exactly what you're buying, of course, that it pertains to every investment. But here we saw that in real time developing yesterday.
Daniel Cohen 07:20
It is a little bit weird that you have a whole bunch of people who theoretically are DeFi focused cheering on a minor change in the regulations with the SEC and allowing people like BlackRock and Vanguard to dominate the discussion. What are your feelings about the announcement, Zoe?
Zoe Cruz 07:43
It is a watershed event, but only in the sense that the SEC, which is the most important regulator in the world, finally acquiesced. The fact that 42 countries around the world are creating a framework of legislation and regulatory oversight, and 20 of them have already done it. The fact that yesterday Gensler acquiesced is a very important event, because the SEC is important. And I think it shows that the industry has achieved escape velocity. And it's early days. Ultimately, it's one more way to express your interest in buying Bitcoin. The centralized, the oligopolistic, if you will, the current finance financiers, they will try to dominate this place. As Andrew said, the question is, how do you take a decentralized permissionless instrument and have 3 or 4 oligopolists kind of determine how it works? I think it will be a centralized finance and decentralized finance coexisting for a long time to come.
Daniel Cohen 09:42
If you look at ETFs, it's gonna be an interesting experience because ETFs are based upon permissions market makers going in and buying the ‘basket’, which is only one thing, which is spot Bitcoin. And buying in the redemption requests of these people who can sell their shares back to the ETF or just sell to other people if the markets are there. This adds a new level of arbitrage in what's traditionally been considered a relatively opaque asset class.
Now we're entering a new environment where this is the first step to opening up. Is the SEC more receptive to digital currencies?
Lek Sokolin 11:51
I think the approval of the ETF is removing an enormous damage that has been done to the American consumer for probably half a decade. We had bad products in the market for a long time, which caused financial destruction. And that was, in many ways people trying to get the product out and not being able to structure it correctly. And so this is way overdue.
Crypto is in large part around financial manufacturing. So being able to make the financial product. Digital gold is the simplest thing you can make. You get to own it, and to send it to people and talk about its correlation. The next question is, what else is out there? You don't just want to hold those assets and make them special for yourself because of capital gains. You want to use those assets and participate in the various software, decentralized finance, NFTs, decentralized physical infrastructure, all the stuff that's been built on that computational financial architecture of blockchains.
I'm really excited to get rid of this feeling of riskiness and illicitness that has, has unfortunately stayed with the industry and just make it yet another regular thing that people are exposed.
The final point is that you've got both the virtual cycle up and down in crypto. So, when Bitcoin does well, the capital gains get reinvested into other projects and other frontier projects, and then those do well. And then you end up having the luxury markets of digital art and things like that booming. And of course, you have the collapse of those when you're deleveraging, and things go poorly. I'm excited for a new cycle, a new year, and a very different atmosphere for the longer tail of projects that come off of the Bitcoin gains.
Daniel Cohen 16:12
Zoe, let's focus on Solana and why you thought Solana was a great new case use case for traditional investors.
Zoe Cruz 17:00
It's a great question you're asking. Before I answer it, the younger generation, in terms of this industry cannot continue to thrive, if it doesn't basically get the approval of politicians and of regulators around the globe. I saw a survey that the majority of millennials in this country and Gen Z, they basically will support pro crypto candidates. And as you know, the way the world works is follow the money. So as that generation becomes more and more active, I think you only have positive tailwinds as opposed to headwinds in the industry.
As you know, Solana was caught up in FTX. It was one of the big positions. It was up 1,000% in the last 12 months, it was down a lot the year before. But we look at the trajectory to put things in the portfolio. Are they real? What Lex was alluding to in terms of Bitcoin is the leader in digital gold or a store of value, and it's making huge inroads to being part and parcel of a portfolio. And Andrew does second and third derivatives of that asset class. But ultimately, there is this other universe that you write software that points to a particular use case where the design of Bitcoin is not particularly conducive to micro payments. If I want to buy something from a basket weaver in Nigeria, Bitcoin is not necessarily what I would use. So, each coin is designed for a particular use case.
Daniel Cohen 20:18
How do you see the development going forward? How does DeFi develop out of this? And what are the new currencies that have to be developed? Or are the existing currencies going to be the ones that people use?
Lek Sokolin 20:46
It’s a space that's been around now for quite a bit of time, and has developed all of this lingo and terminology about what it is. So, it's often a very steep learning curve. And people use these magic words, and it's easy to lose people. But if you think about financial services, it is full of acronyms as well. I'll try to give a couple of analogies which will hopefully spark curiosity for people to engage further on it. You know, the simplest explanation of why millennials and Gen Z are interested in in crypto candidates and supporting it politically. It's money on the internet. All your other money, it's not for the internet.
The second order of explanation is Bitcoins invented digital scarcity, the scarcity of digital goods. In the physical world, we have physical scarcity. If I give you a cup of coffee, I don't have the cup of coffee, thanks to the laws of physics. If I send you a picture of a cup of coffee via email, you will have that picture and I will have that picture as well. So, there's no scarcity of digital goods. If I send you my digital Bitcoin, you have it and I don't. So that's the first invention. The second invention is not just sending some sort of container or object back and forth. It is building software environments in which these things can be programmed. So that's the difference between chains like XRP for fast payments and Bitcoins for holding and for slow payments. It's much more powerful to create a programming environment in which we can create software that can then interact and generate rules and algorithms for those digital objects that you're moving around.
Most of the early software that's been built is on Etherium. And other variants of programmable chains have had to do with the digital objects, the tokens that travel on those chains. And so decentralized finance, you can think of them as programs that are executed by the Ethereum network that have FinTech functionality, and the FinTech functionality they have is exactly the same as you would want in any financial services system.
So, there's no difference in the core needs that people have for finance. People need to pay, to save, to invest, to ensure those are repeatable. Decentralized finance allows the execution of fulfilling of those needs, within the architecture of blockchains. If you have a defy lending protocol, you can put tokens in a box and take out a loan, collateralized lending. If you have a decentralized exchange, you can put tokens in a box and get other tokens, so you have an exchange venue, with people putting capital in and so on.
The specifics of the transformations don't really matter as much to say that, like any financial function you would want, within this venue within this chain programmable environment. These things have been built out during 2018, 2019, 2020. And they have been viciously attacked during the bear market and the FTX collapse. That reminder of the FTX collapse was very much human failure and fraud and personal failure rather than programming failure. So these decentralized protocols for financial functions functioned very well throughout that time, and you could see people's balances, you could see where the money was coming in going out, you could do that block by block. I think that infrastructure is really important. And it's important as more people come into Bitcoin and look for places to spend it on and to own various things on chain. And then the more productivity, the more labor and GDP is created.
Daniel Cohen 27:03
We've been interested in the use cases of DeFi since 2000, and cryptocurrency in theory and programmable currencies, and all those things since 2016. There's huge opportunities. I think this is where the younger generations, you know, really get it and the older generations don't. The idea of a community having the ability to make decisions in a decentralized autonomous organization, those are uses that I'm really excited for.
When do you think we're going to see adoption of more of the technologies that are embedded in a lot of the cryptocurrencies?
Zoe Cruz 32:17
Well, look, I think the future is bigger and bigger communities, creating an ecosystem. What Lex was talking about decentralized finance, within that ecosystem, nation states will allow you to grow exponentially, and you could have the banking functions within that ecosystem. But I believe there are two major power levers that nation states have and that is monetary policy and fiscal policy. They will never ever give up control of either one of those things. So for me what these regulatory body of rules that the globe is developing around me, politicians are developing and regulators. What they're saying is Bitcoin to Bitcoin, knock your socks off, we're gonna let you grow to the moon, at least the enlightened ones do. But the Fiat on and off ramps, I'm gonna regulate you the way I regulate Citigroup, and you go to jail.
They will change the way many business models work, where the intermediaries will be eliminated, to some extent. Fiat currencies aren't going anywhere. I have enormous respect for Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger, these are giants of the world. They don't understand how this new world is going to work. They don't have enough respect of the way Lex and his generation will change the world. But I think that generation doesn't have enough respect. So I think it's the coexistence of the two that will enable this industry to continue to grow.
Daniel Cohen 34:40
This gets us to a demographic issue, which is the younger generation took over earlier because there were fewer of the older generation. Now we're holding on, and it just delays everything, but it's interesting.
Andrew's really been focused on more of the traditional finance problem. So maybe you can tell us about your project in digital currencies and digital assets.
Andrew Hohns 35:31
Since we're talking generationally, I'll raise the flag to represent Gen X here. Gen X is very pragmatic. We can look to the past and see where we've come from, and we can look to the future and see all of the amazing things that are coming down the pike. But right now, the digital asset world remains pretty small in global terms. And our orientation from Newmarket is really focused as long term lenders and we bring a structured credit approach to this universe. And for that reason, we've really been focused on Bitcoin because although it may not be the fastest land animal, it definitely has the greatest endurance. Bitcoin has been around for 15 years now it has the best 15 year track record of any financial asset in history. Etherium has been outperforming Bitcoin for the last four years since May 2020. We'll have to check in and see how it does in 15 years. Solana has been outperforming Bitcoin for the last year, maybe that makes Eth, like a Springbok and Solana like a Cheetah. But they can't necessarily run the full marathon.
As lenders, we're focused on the long term collateral value. And I view personally that Bitcoin is very clearly excellent, pristine collateral. It's finite, it's scarce, it's fungible, it's weightless, it's infinitely divisible. It's transportable around the world trades 24 hours a day, seven days a week, it has the greatest cross currency liquidity pool of any acid in the world, and tremendous use cases. It may not be as programmable as some of these other digital currencies, there are certainly programmable elements and side chains and layer two solutions that are very interesting, and working in Bitcoin. But they're also layer one solutions that are really profound. Refugees, political dissidents and abused women are holding on to Bitcoin and saving in a way that gives them personal freedom. And people are not really counting on Avalanche or Cardano to provide them with that personal freedom when they're crossing the border trying to escape circumstances that are very difficult.
Bitcoin use cases extend beyond some of the things that are happening in the DeFi world into some very profound savings and investment technology. So what we're doing with it, to bring it a little bit into focus, Daniel, is we've developed an approach to lending that is honestly kind of ancient in its orientation, in the sense that it's very much like what the Torah says or what the Koran says in terms of not prioritizing interests, but prioritizing risk sharing.
We're combining Bitcoin with traditionally financeable assets in a combined collateral package and extending loans to the combination of those assets. So, for example, we take performing multifamily apartment buildings, which has a traditional loan and we offer the sponsor a refinancing opportunity with some excess proceeds and instead of cash out, the sponsor uses those excess proceeds to put Bitcoin in and effectively read denominates a portion of the equity in the asset that they know in like out of Fiat and into Bitcoin. And that introduces some of bitcoins medium to long term economics into the value of the asset that the sponsor already has, which is already providing them equity income, which is very valuable. It creates a collateral package that is uncorrelated that is likely to grow in Fiat value much more rapidly. Then the amortization itself would deliver the project in a traditional loan. And on the upside, we can share in some of the appreciation of the Bitcoin over the life of the loan.
Zoe Cruz 41:49
For me, it's a continuum. It's great to see that smart, capable people like Andrew, are using this in the traditional finance sense. But I would say the one thing and I think there was a question there that reminds me of the fact that in the States, the way we look at Bitcoin, the question was, when can you buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin? Well, in the US, it's irrational to buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin. In Venezuela? It's not. In the US, my answer is no. Andrew’s solution is a much better solution of pristine collateral for Bitcoin. The Argentinian peso lost 98% of its value in less than a year. So, rational to buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin there.
I love the fact that serious people like Andrew and Lex, they're continuing to participate in an industry that will grow exponentially. But the way I say and why we give exposure long only exposure in our product to investors, zero allocation to this space is the wrong answer. More than three to 5% is also the wrong answer. Because this is nascent, some of these tokens will cease to exist, some of these projects will fail dramatically. But the way I look at it as an asset allocator, in my own family office, you make money by taking risks. That's how I made my career, but you need to get paid for the risk. Right now, the macro world is such that the only asset class that I see the asymmetry of risk reward in your favor at this point, is this asset class, because you're getting paid for investing in a very risky asset class.
Daniel Cohen 44:20
Does this ETF decision set Bitcoin projects back for various second tier payment mechanisms. Are people only approaching it as an asset class?
Andrew Hohns 44:51
Look, the nice thing about Bitcoin is theirs is simultaneously the scarcest asset in the world, and there's also plenty to go around. In other words, It's permissionless. And when someone builds on Bitcoin, it just adds strength to someone else's project on Bitcoin. And what they're doing in Venezuela is maybe not so much buying the Bitcoin, although some of them are, of course, buying the coffee with Bitcoin on a lightning wallet where you can transfer off chain very economically and instantaneously for smaller transactions. But really, they're saving in Bitcoin. And then when they're ready to make a purchase, they're converting their savings to some other currency. Could be a traditional political currency in the jurisdiction, where they're located, or it could be some other digital currency that they utilize to transact more rapidly. With the ETF, that introduces a new buyer base, which is going to be chomping away at the amount of available Bitcoin that exists and adding additional value to the various projects that are being built on it. But it's infinitely divisible. And so it lends itself to a multitude of uses.
Zoe Cruz 46:08
To me, what you just described, Andrew, is synthetic affects trading, because affects is trillions of dollars around the world. Back at my old job, if I wanted to send a billion dollars from Citigroup, the SWIFT system correspondent banking system works fine. If you're a plumber, sending some money to Mexico, 10 bucks, not so good. So, the use case that's currently in the billions of dollars that's being executed as we speak, is synthetic affects that through the digital asset.
Daniel Cohen 46:58
The best use case you guys are talking about are in terms of preserving asset value. Argentines have $500 billion in US dollar assets and $80 billion in US physical cash, right? Are we gonna see payment mechanisms for this?
Lek Sokolin 48:57
I think the answer to pretty much all the rhetorical questions is it already exists, and it works. And there's thousands if not millions of people are using it. So, anybody in the audience that has a rhetorical, but what about question is already wrong. Because the answer is that it exists. You know, there's one distinction I kind of want to bring about, which is there tends to be confusion when talking about crypto between what would be Apple stock and the iPhone. Nobody is like, oh, I don't have enough iPhones in my portfolio. And then, at the same time, it's like, why can't I buy sandwiches with Apple stock? You know, Apple is a bad company. And the point is, there's functionality of thing and then there's the value capture of the thing. And they are different things. And bitcoin is tricky conceptually in part because it's such a macro play. And in many ways, it's super simple. It's got a macro value prop, which is, you know, the apocalypse hedge for all the central banks in the world going down and you have a new global reserve currency. There's just so much more beyond that.
And a lot can be built on Bitcoin as a currency. But you do have to buy into the sort of the macro story about the dollar and the value of digital gold and so on. There's also a version in the space where you don't have to buy into it at all, you can say the dollar is supreme. And so if I want to send $1 to Argentina, or Brazil, or Venezuela, there are applications that are being built across every single remittance corridor you can think of from Mexico to Singapore, the Philippines that are using the USD see the turnover of stable coins on Etherium is at or larger than visa. So you don't even have to buy into the sort of the new money argument and say, Okay, forget about the Apple stock, the iPhone, the functionality of this thing is an operating system of applications that are all open source, they're all decentralized, and they take money in every asset class, in one place.
So you're going from a place where you have core banking systems for the banks and portfolio management for the investment managers and the payment rails for Visa and MasterCard, and the insurance companies having different architecture, and then the custodians and the exchanges, and the CSD is and blah, blah, blah, right? And you taking all of that you're setting it on fire and throwing it in the rubbish.
And then instead using a single computational interface, that's open source that anyone can write software to that's completely interoperable. So, venture capital looks like private equity looks like real estate looks like equities looks like paying for a sandwich looks like taking an insurance contract out. From a venture perspective and the exposure of where the growth is going to come from. It's all the businesses that are being built in this economy, they're using these pieces to build better businesses. And I don't have to ask a lot of these legacy questions. And I think Bitcoin is an enormous part of that.
Daniel Cohen 52:44
Those of us who haven't been as deep in the Bitcoin space, or the cryptocurrency space would have said that, really this idea that we're all going to be paying with cryptocurrency is ridiculous, but what you're saying is, and dispute this if you want, is that there's really a foothold already. But just like building the American railroads, there was an enormous amount of issues with financial fraud.
And in terms of building the currency rails for millennials, and Gen X, you know, we're still moving forward in that direction. Do you guys dispute or agree with that?
Lek Sokolin 53:30
I'll go to the visa statement of network of networks. You know, these aren't winner take all across the world markets. When you get into an Uber, you can't pay with cash, cash is no good. And an Uber, you have to use Web2 payment systems plugged into Apple Pay or Google Pay, right. It's a different payment network and economy than the cash economy. You can't throw a phone at somebody who wants to be paid in cash. If you go into a store in Asia, and it needs you to scan a QR code and only Alipay is going to work. And so similarly, for the Web3 world and the crypto world, it's an economic architecture, which has its own financial system. And that's going to exist and it already does exist alongside the traditional financial system. But it just so happens that it is the place where the growth is going to root. It's the interesting place to build. It's the unexplored frontier and people are moving into it both with their capital and career decisions. And so, I think if I can leave people with anything is just to be curious and to explore it, you know, as, as seriously as you can.
Daniel Cohen 54:47
Do you think the crypto winter is behind us?
Zoe Cruz 55:03
If you look at where we started, the last two collapses in 2015 and 2000, I think. You had this massive collapse and then it went up. So, we superimposed where we are currently with Bitcoin at 45,000. Where it is, the trajectories steeply upward sloping, you still have 40% - 50% to get to the previous high. In the last 12 months, if we project correctly, you should have another doubling, tripling of the major assets of this asset class. So, yes, unequivocally.
Lek Sokolin 55:55
What I will tell you is that I'm seeing enormous enthusiasm by developers and builders in the space. People are moving, and they've been moving for the last 12 months, so there's a huge disconnect between the entrepreneurial kind of class and then the institutional LP asset allocator class who's like, oh, crypto, we were proven right. Somebody did some fraud. And I don't mean to be glib about it, but it's just a deep misunderstanding of the actual value prop. So there's still a big disconnect on the ground and in the financial crowd, but I think we're gonna see a ton of really interesting applications emerge. And I think a lot of that is going to be overlapping with AI, productivity, the labor, digital labor coming out of AI. And so, you know, we're entering that world.
Daniel Cohen 57:01
Lex, we agree completely with that viewpoint. Andrew, go ahead.
Andrew Hohns 57:05
Certainly, winters are for building and building projects, and there's been a lot of building that's been happening. For us, it's long term view on the collateral value of Bitcoin. So, it's not timing the market, it's time in the market. I do think that we're in a very bullish position right now, in terms of being blocked 825,500 or so on our way to the next having at 840,000, the ETFs, the FASB rule change that's going to enable companies to recognize quarterly value changes in their in their earnings, as opposed to the prior system where you could only write it down. So many different factors, everything that's being built on Bitcoin, etc, I think it's a bullish setup.
And if you look at every four year period in Bitcoin history, since the November 2012, having the 50th percentile, compound annual growth rate has been 97%. The fifth percentile has been 30%. And the very, very worst four year hold period has been 23%. So the short term volatility is incredibly interesting and headline grabbing. But in a sense, when in doubt, zoom out and focus on the bigger picture of what's happening here, which I think is the direction of travel that is very compelling overall.
Daniel Cohen 58:34
Anybody want to say where Bitcoin will be at the end of this decade?
Zoe Cruz 58:41
I'll just begin by saying I don't know. But I would say the industry will be much more meaningful and part and parcel of the way we live, what the value could be, you could convince me it could be a million dollars. But if currently, I think in markets, my macro view of the world is we’re at a huge inflection point. And so although I'm bullish on the asset class, if basically, I'm right, that inflation isn't going back down to 2%, in my lifetime, and the Fed isn't going to ease, and inflation actually goes back up, which I think it will, because of the friction of what's going on in movements of goods and capital and the yield curve steepens. Maybe the next year, you have another correction. But that doesn't negate for me when you look at an investment fundamentally, it's the risk reward the asymmetry of risk reward. So the asymmetry of risk reward is still in the favor of this asset class Bitcoin at the head of the queue.
Lek Sokolin 59:52
If we are at one and a half to generously 2 trillion. We have market cap in this asset class, I think we're looking at 10 or 20 trillion by the end of the decade. I mean, this is where growth happens, right? I mean, there's what 400 trillion or so of human economic stuff out there. And I just see more and more economic stuff go here, and more and more GDP go here, you know, so and in the way that like, ecommerce in the US, Amazon, I think, has maybe what a 12% share of retail commerce. And everyone says, only 12% share, you know, went from two to 12%. And it's a trillion-dollar company. And I think for crypto, it's the same where the share numbers might appear low, but you're gonna see just absolutely incredible value generation. And some of that will happen in Bitcoin and the main chains, but so much more will happen. People building businesses and projects on top of these chains that are still hard to conceptualize. So, I think it's an amazing place to both be a founder as well as to take risk as well as to be an early investor.
Daniel Cohen 1:05:27
Thank you everybody, and thanks, everybody for watching.